Hello every one.  It has been some time since I last posted on these pages.  I hope that all are well and enjoying their Volvo's.

My Volvo C304 TGB13 has not been driven for a little while.  In that time the fuel pump does not deliver fuel.  I guess that the seals may have dried out perhaps.  I would like to discontinue relying on the mechanical pump and turn to electric.  Unfortunately 24 Volt pumps are not very common and I do not want to use a voltage dropper if I can get away with it.  I have looked at the Facet web site and noted several 24 Volt pumps.


http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/


I realise that a low pressure pump is most suited for carburettors and the original mechanical pump is rated at 2.1 psi - 4.0 psi.  I am not sure about the volume. 

Which ones might prove to be most suitable?

Most of these pumps have limited lift capability 0.3m - 0.6m.  this means that any of these pumps will need to be mounted close to the tank.  I have not yet investigated this but does any one know were the easiest place to put one might be.

they also list some Dura lift pumps.  Capable of lifting fuel at 3.0m dry.  This would allow it to be mounted within the engine compartment close to the original  Unfortunately the pressure, I think, might be too high at 11.0 psi - 5.9 psi.  Any of these pumps cold be routed via a Filter King and for any pumps that supplied too high a pressure can be fed through a pressure regulator.  Fuel King do a combined filter with regulator that can be adjusted it has a dial for reading the pressure.

http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/Malpassi%20Fuel%20Pressure%20Regulators.pdf


I have also noticed that Thomas at the Pinze Shop has 24 Volt pumps, I have written to him for information about lift hight volume and psi but have not received a reply.

Does any one have any thoughts.  I hope that the links that I supplied are of interest.

Zitat von: Anthony am 29.September 2009 12:25:17

I have also noticed that Thomas at the Pinze Shop has 24 Volt pumps,

The Pinzi-Shop does´nt exist since may 2009, sorry.

FWIW: I had the 'Red top' (170L/h) mounted between 300L extra tank & stock tank, with the added note that if my mechanical pump would ever fail, I could use that one instead.
However, I still wanted a spare mechanical pump with me....if only because an electrical pump is a safety risk, if not switched off automatically in case of an accident.

I also see no sense in having another essential electrical item, to drain your batteries in case your alternator got bad....I'd prefer only an 123-ignition draining, lasting for many many hours....;))
(btw, how much more does the original ignition consume?....can't be less, can it?)
(or is it the coil that consumes most of the energy?)
(which is still used with 123-ignition)

Don't add vulnerability to your vehicle, it will only make Murphy happy.

Fuel pump gaskets are dirt cheap btw, IIRC.
(even complete mechanical fuel pumps are!)

Hi Anthony,

are you sure that there ist not just some dirt in the fuelline ?
Have you checked the fuelline from the pump to the tank.
I had the same Problem. I took of the fuelline from the pump and was blowing through it. Than it was good.

Regards
Uli

Zitat von: Anthony am 29.September 2009 12:25:17

Hello every one.  It has been some time since I last posted on these pages.  I hope that all are well and enjoying their Volvo's.

hi anthony,
good to have you back again!

Zitat:

My Volvo C304 TGB13 has not been driven for a little while.  In that time the fuel pump does not deliver fuel.  I guess that the seals may have dried out perhaps.  I would like to discontinue relying on the mechanical pump and turn to electric.  Unfortunately 24 Volt pumps are not very common and I do not want to use a voltage dropper if I can get away with it.  I have looked at the Facet web site and noted several 24 Volt pumps.

i have switched from mechanical pump to electric, too, last year but discovered problems with that solution.
I mounted the fuel pump by the batteries on the left outside (TGB1314), new fuel lines, an truck fine filter and a normal prefilter with an one direction valve. i also removed the filter king, which is of no use for me anymore.
unfortuneately the heat of the engine caused the pump to fail after a short while, after cooling down it then works again. it is limited to 80°C.

after this experience, where my truck was standing on a public parking for over one month, i decided to switch back to the cheap and working mechanic pump.

i could still recommend the electric pump, as the engine was starting after one sec allways. its a hardy 18824v and automatically sets the fuel line to 0,35 bar pressure, selfregulated. no additional pressure regulator needed. fuel is pumped from dry at 1.2 metres.

best regards to the uk,

chris

Zitat von: Uli-RT am 29.September 2009 16:21:31

Hi Anthony, are you sure that there ist not just some dirt in the fuelline ? Have you checked the fuelline from the pump to the tank. I had the same Problem. I took of the fuelline from the pump and was blowing through it. Than it was good. Regards Uli

same with me. the mechanical pump was broken because of sand in the fuel lines. after cleaning everything and installing two filters everything was fine.

hi, anthony,

before investing time and money into an additional
source of failures please try to check the original
parts.

The seals and membranes of the original pump are
very cheap an may be easyly changed. I have had
a prefilter directly behind the tank just before the
fuel line along the frame and never a problem.
Cleaning the whole lines is easy, too.

My car was sometimes just standing outside for 4 or
even for 6 month the last winter. The only thing to
do was to run the starter for about 2 minutes to have
enough fuel in the carburetors again.

If you try so be carefull to let the starter rest for 15
seconds after every 5 seconds of starting. May be
I have ruined my starter by starting for about 45
seconds in one attempt. It overheated and lost one
copper inlay from the collector, which blocked the
rotor and everything was nearly melted down from
shortage....

You can as well open up the fuel line on top to
insert some fuel to the carburetors manually and
put some start-pilot into the airbox, to let the engine
run a little bit from alone. That will bring enouth fuel
to the top again - I hope.

best wishes
michael

Zitat von: michael am 29.September 2009 18:38:43

You can as well open up the fuel line on top to insert some fuel to the carburetors manually and put some start-pilot into the airbox, to let the engine run a little bit from alone. That will bring enouth fuel to the top again - I hope.

michael is right, i am using starter spray too - in cold conditions.
just use the hot-air intake right between the carbs, unplug the line and spray in some starter spray. the engine will do the rest.

Zitat von: michael am 29.September 2009 18:38:43

hi, anthony, before investing time and money into an additional source of failures please try to check the original parts. The seals and membranes of the original pump are very cheap an may be easyly changed. I have had a prefilter directly behind the tank just before the fuel line along the frame and never a problem. Cleaning the whole lines is easy, too. My car was sometimes just standing outside for 4 or even for 6 month the last winter. The only thing to do was to run the starter for about 2 minutes to have enough fuel in the carburetors again. If you try so be carefull to let the starter rest for 15 seconds after every 5 seconds of starting. May be I have ruined my starter by starting for about 45 seconds in one attempt. It overheated and lost one copper inlay from the collector, which blocked the rotor and everything was nearly melted down from shortage.... You can as well open up the fuel line on top to insert some fuel to the carburetors manually and put some start-pilot into the airbox, to let the engine run a little bit from alone. That will bring enouth fuel to the top again - I hope. best wishes michael

Perhaps the civil (12v) starters are technically different, but the one I abused many dozens of times in the most brutal way{*} still hasn't quit on me....

{*} another firefighter, rusty & tired, suffering from many problems simultaneously I guess, requiring (re-)starts many times on a trip
(pathetic little torque at low rpm, hence frequent engine stalling when driving off, even in 2nd gear; vapourlock (starting most problematic when hot), old spark plugs, bad fuel pump, plus last but not least: open headers (which did allow the original firebrigade to add a squirt of 'Liquid Start Boost' right from the driver's seat....:))
(and no, the engine hasn't quit yet either, from that abuse....:))
(it's my eardrums that will fail first, because they had to cut a section of body-panel away, near the front engine-hatch, to accommodate the open header....only a flap of vinyl separates it from the cabin....so you basically drive without engine-hatch, sound-wise....:))

Btw, when I mean slow starting, I am talking about at least 5 minutes of continuous cranking, each and every time....:))
(then slowly 1 cylinder springs to life, after another minute #2, and so on....:))))
(it doesn't even matter whether it has sit standing still for 1 hour, 1 day, or 3 years....same procedure as last year, James....:))

Zitat von: Chris am 29.September 2009 19:46:9

Zitat von: michael am 29.September 2009 18:38:43 You can as well open up the fuel line on top to insert some fuel to the carburetors manually and put some start-pilot into the airbox, to let the engine run a little bit from alone. That will bring enouth fuel to the top again - I hope. michael is right, i am using starter spray too - in cold conditions. just use the hot-air intake right between the carbs, unplug the line and spray in some starter spray. the engine will do the rest.

What you could also do, in very cold conditions, for a gasoline engine, is adding a fuel bypass with 72 octane fuel (you can create 72 octane by blending 50/50 regular high-octane gasoline with diesel)....much easier ignition.
(some old & tired Russian trucks can't even start on anything else in cold conditions....simply not enough compression to get startet on regular high-octane)
Have been tempting to create such a (temporarily) bypass by adding a 'anti-freeze-pump-injector' that is used for trucks with air-brakes; those allow squirting a limited amount of fluid into the line (and if they can do that in a line for air-pressure, they sure can do that in a line for fuel-pressure....)))

Can you hear it............Brumm Brummm Brummmmm   

Thank you every one, and all, for your kind advice and considerations.


I blew air into the tank with a ball pump via the petrol feed to the pump, all OK, blub, blub bubble.

I then disconnected the pipe from the filter carb side and with a large medical syringe forced fuel into the carburettors so filling the float bowls.  Reconnected the pipes and the brand new batteries turned it over, it coughed and spluttered.  I stopped and refilled the carbs, reconnected, turned her over and it started first time.  I revved it a little up and down and have now just left it running for a while.

Next thing on the agenda, is to have a look at the brakes as I have weeping cylinder front drivers side/left I fear!  My yearly MOT will need to be applied for, I let it run out. I will be able to put t back on the road once the MOT has been passed..

That is a shame,TGB11.  i used to correspond a little with him but I did not hear for a while.  he has just replied thanking me for my enquiry and confirmed that he was not trading via the Pinz Shop.

Zitat von: TGB_11 am 29.September 2009 13:11:3

Zitat von: Anthony am 29.September 2009 12:25:17 I have also noticed that Thomas at the Pinze Shop has 24 Volt pumps, The Pinzi-Shop does´nt exist since may 2009, sorry.

Zitat von: Anthony am 30.September 2009 16:38:24

Next thing on the agenda, is to have a look at the brakes as I have weeping cylinder front drivers side/left I fear!  My yearly MOT will need to be applied for, I let it run out. I will be able to put t back on the road once the MOT has been passed..

hi anthony,
very nice- good job!
keep us updated on the brakes, too!

best regards,

chris

Well it is going now    I do not feel that an electric pump is a complication, on the contrary I feel that the mechanical pump is a liability and a pain!  I accept that what you say concerning an alternator malfunction, for what ever reason, yes, the pump would then drain the battery along with anything else that is running.

Ill have to see if I buy an electric pump as I have other expenses at the moment. 

Zitat von: WJM am 29.September 2009 13:49:52

FWIW: I had the 'Red top' (170L/h) mounted between 300L extra tank & stock tank, with the added note that if my mechanical pump would ever fail, I could use that one instead. However, I still wanted a spare mechanical pump with me....if only because an electrical pump is a safety risk, if not switched off automatically in case of an accident. I also see no sense in having another essential electrical item, to drain your batteries in case your alternator got bad....I'd prefer only an 123-ignition draining, lasting for many many hours....;)) (btw, how much more does the original ignition consume?....can't be less, can it?) (or is it the coil that consumes most of the energy?) (which is still used with 123-ignition) Don't add vulnerability to your vehicle, it will only make Murphy happy. Fuel pump gaskets are dirt cheap btw, IIRC. (even complete mechanical fuel pumps are!)

It is very wonderful to have such a welcome and I am glad to be back!


thank you for supplying the link to the fuel pump www.hardi.de/verg.htm]hardy 18824v

It is interesting that it overheated and caused such problems or you!  I wonder if it was overstretched and possibly.  Located in the battery box do you think that it may have may not have had enough cooling air?  Ah not in the battery box but next to the engine, uhm.  Yes, perhaps the close proximity of the engine did it in.

Limited to 80 deg C, is that the pump??

Fast starting would be a pleasure.  It allays feels wrong to me, having to crank the engine so much after stopping, that is a real pain and inconvenient.  Putting all that additional strain on the battery and subjecting the starter to unnecessary heat.

The pump is self regulating you say? That is  good.

Do you think that it is immune from water if wading???

It is a pity that you felt it necessary to revert to mechanical.  many old Landrovers have changed toelectric.

Zitat von: Chris am 29.September 2009 16:42:47

good to have you back again! i have switched from mechanical pump to electric, too, last year but discovered problems with that solution. I mounted the fuel pump by the batteries on the left outside (TGB1314), new fuel lines, an truck fine filter and a normal prefilter with an one direction valve. i also removed the filter king, which is of no use for me anymore. unfortuneately the heat of the engine caused the pump to fail after a short while, after cooling down it then works again. it is limited to 80°C. after this experience, where my truck was standing on a public parking for over one month, i decided to switch back to the cheap and working mechanic pump. i could still recommend the electric pump, as the engine was starting after one sec allways. its a hardy 18824v and automatically sets the fuel line to 0,35 bar pressure, selfregulated. no additional pressure regulator needed. fuel is pumped from dry at 1.2 metres. best regards to the uk, chris

Zitat von: Anthony am 30.September 2009 17:39:8

It is interesting that it overheated and caused such problems or you!  I wonder if it was overstretched and possibly.  Located in the battery box do you think that it may have may not have had enough cooling air?  Ah not in the battery box but next to the engine, uhm.  Yes, perhaps the close proximity of the engine did it in.

first thing was: engine had wrong ignition point, at about 0° TDC instead of 10° TDC. engine got quite hot about 110°C (i also had the cooling thermostat with 100°C)
at the tgb1314, the hot air can only pass out under the box or at the left side, were i mounted the pump. twice my fault.

Zitat:

Limited to 80 deg C, is that the pump??

the pump is limited to 80°, yes.
as you have a tgb13, you could place it inside the compartment, but i would suggest using the mechanical pump instead.

Zitat:

The pump is self regulating you say? That is  good.

yes during ignition it runs for 2-3 sek and then stops until you push the button

Zitat:

Do you think that it is immune from water if wading???

it is only limited water resistent, also designed for marine use. it is splash water resistent.

Zitat:

It is a pity that you felt it necessary to revert to mechanical.  many old Landrovers have changed toelectric.

i will use the electrical pump to refuel from auxiliary tanks.
the mechanical has some advantage:
can only be broken by dirty fuel, is water resistent and costs only some 20€.

only disadvantage is the longer starting phase, but if I use the engine every week, it always starts after 2sek without any help
ah one thing:
afterwards, after reparing everything, i switched to 123ignition along with new cables and stuff, also a new coil. now exactly set to 10° TDC, it starts up quite good. put in a 81° thermostat, too.

have you checked ignition timing?
greets,

chris

ps: brakes have to be revised at my truck, too...

Zitat von: Anthony am 30.September 2009 16:38:24

Next thing on the agenda, is to have a look at the brakes as I have weeping cylinder front drivers side/left I fear!

Don't take that easy, Anthony.

I was on the way to get the air out of my brake lines because
my brake pedal was very weak and going down more and more.
Just on the road I caught a very bad smell from
outside, and in the garage I found one brake cylinder
bleeding and the brake shoes with a little bit brake oil on it. It
was just the last time to save the brake shoes with some
brake cleaner and to exchange the cylinders before the pedal
was falling down to the metall.

We had a electric tool to put pressure on the brake system,
and with two people we went around for 6 times bleeding the
air out of the system.

Having a piece of wood to hold down the brake pedal on half
the height and such an pressure engine will let you bleed the
lines alone, or you need at least a second person to help.

If you change just one cylinder (only if the others are quite new)
you may have to bleed just that line. Normally you have
to change all 4 cylinders on the front axle or/and the two on
one back axle at the same time.

We pumped nealy 1,5 liters of brake oil throug the system
until there was good pressure on the pedal. With a 6wheeler
it may be a little bit more, if there is a big bubble problem.

Before you start pumping you should get the car up on 4
stands and remove all the wheels. Pull the shoes to "loose"
with the shoe-adjustment screws from inside the wheelbase,
pull off the drums and clean everything as good as possible.

I you want to change the cylinders put enough WD40 on the
screws, the line conectors and the bleeding nipples some days
before - don't ruin them...

If you change the cylinders one after an other you don't need
to put off the shoes - that means you don't need to put off the
springs, which will go on again very badly....

To open and close the brake lines it is usefull to have a
special wrench for it: 13 mm ring wrench with an opening on
top - the ring is not closed to put it over the brake line.
(A similar open ring wrench with 11 mm is usefull for the
bleeding nipples to get it over the small bleeding tube that
leads the oil to the bubling-bottle)

Than put on the drums again, fix it with some nuts turned outside
in an correct the distance between the shoes and the
drums with the adjustment srews to zero. If you now press
your foot on the pedal there will be no free way between the
shoes and the drums, you can feel the air directly. 

If you now put a little pressure on the sytem you can open the
bleeding nipples. That pressure can come frome a pressure
tool or from a pumping hand on the pedal.

With a tool it is more easy. The pedal on half way down opens the
way trough the main brake cylinder. You can open the bleeding
nipple and let it run until no more air is comming
(sometimes it looks like some little bubbles in champagne,
smaller than in coke). Start with the nipple most far away
from the pedal and then come to the front axle. After all
nipples are closed again you can check the feeling on the
pedal. Still weak? Try again, and again, and again. We reduced
the free way for the pedal form about 60% down to ca. 5%
of the way - that is quite hard and responsive on the foot.

If you have no pressure tool you need a second person. Use
clear commands: Pressure on the pedal, open the nipple, let
it bleed until the pedal is down to 80%, close the nipple again,
let the pedal come up, fill in oil into the reservoir if it runs empty,
put pressure on the pedal again, open the nipple again
and so on and so on... That means good communication
between the working persons. Don't let the pedal go down
to 100 %, you may ruin the main brake cylinder. Put a piece
of wood under the pedal to limit the free way.

If you check how to open and close the bleeding nipples you
will see that not every wrench will work fine in the limited
free space. The space may be depending on the quality
of the cylinders: cheap cylinders have more material left over
on the side with the nipples which may be in the way. Try to
make it loose with a 1/4" ratchet with  11mm nut and open/close
with a 11mm open end wrench or with the special
ring wrench with an opening for the bleed tube. When the
work is done you can fix it with the ratchet again.

Sometimes the bleeding nipples are very loose - they may
suck in air through the thread while th oil is streaming
through it. You see air is comming (hooray!) but in the same
moment the nipple makes "pfffft".

I hope that is all understandable...

Good luck
michael

I agree, one needs to be careful not to run the starter for too long just in case it burns out, ooch.

I followed your suggestion, unplugged a fuel hose then poured petrol into the carburettor float bowls with a large medical syringe, great.

Zitat von: michael am 29.September 2009 18:38:43

hi, anthony, before investing time and money into an additional source of failures please try to check the original parts. The seals and membranes of the original pump are very cheap an may be easyly changed. I have had a prefilter directly behind the tank just before the fuel line along the frame and never a problem. Cleaning the whole lines is easy, too. My car was sometimes just standing outside for 4 or even for 6 month the last winter. The only thing to do was to run the starter for about 2 minutes to have enough fuel in the carburetors again. If you try so be carefull to let the starter rest for 15 seconds after every 5 seconds of starting. May be I have ruined my starter by starting for about 45 seconds in one attempt. It overheated and lost one copper inlay from the collector, which blocked the rotor and everything was nearly melted down from shortage.... You can as well open up the fuel line on top to insert some fuel to the carburetors manually and put some start-pilot into the airbox, to let the engine run a little bit from alone. That will bring enouth fuel to the top again - I hope. best wishes michael

Michael,

      Wow, that is a most comprehensive report for changing the cylinders, very understandable, brilliant!!

Thank you.

Returning back on to this forum brings it all back to me, of just how friendly and supportive it is here and how absolutely excellent and comprehensive all the advice is!

Zitat von: Anthony am 1.Oktober 2009 07:14:46

Returning back on to this forum brings it all back to me, of just how friendly and supportive it is here and how absolutely excellent and comprehensive all the advice is!

...and  that was one point for choosing volvo instead of pinzgauer...
at least for me.